Matchday thread - Toon v Toffees

[Sanchino]

The guy that scored a well taken volley today? I don't think so. Willock, Pope, Kraft, Burn (demoted to squad player), Osula and give Trippier a 1 year extension as a part time coach / squad player all deserve to all leave before him. Murphs is a good pro who may lack quality at times but still deserves to be in the squad, him, Big Joe, Hall and Tonali was the only ones really trying to make things happen in the second half.

Very disappointing today. Devastating result. Performance was a shambles in the first half but improved in the second but too many individual defensive lapses have cost us. The players have as much blame as Howe who sets up the team and tactics. Today both were at fault the players for too many individual mistakes and lapses of concentration. Howe for setting up the team the wrong way (said this numerous times a continuous issue which may end him getting sacked if it persists). He played a no.9 (what he was originally bought in as not a no.10) in the no.10/no 8 position, a box-to-box midfielder in Big as a left winger when you have Barnes who can play there more effectively on the bench? Playing a natural winger as a no.9? Playing the same predictable 433 (as usual) instead of trying something different maybe a 352/343 or a 422 or a 4222?

Lots of questions and not enough conclusive answers right now. Wasting 150m on Wissa, Wolfie and Elanga is looking like very, very poor business now. None of them have really upgraded the team to the next level and that's on the recruitment team last summer weather it was his nephew or him making the decisions then that needs sorted out as we need more quality now than just quantity. Big, big summer ahead.

Crunch time for Mr.Howe this season. It will make or break him I feel. Potentially we could be in dreamland if we somehow beat Barca and City things will be very rosy again but if we get knocked out of both competitions and don't pick up results in the Prem it could get dark and very dark fast. Big derby game too.. lose that and I feel it may be curtains for him.

I mean that's generous - it was deflected in. He's definitely going downhill and doesn't look the player he's been for us the previous few seasons, he's not offered much this season. I don't think Osula offers anything either and if there's still interest for him I'd happily cash in on him too.

But totally agree on the summer window... looking like very poor business indeed. And suspect you're right about Howe, I can't see us getting European football and can't see us getting past City and Barca in the FA Cup and CL respectively, and if we finish like 12th-14th, is that gonna be curtains? Possibly.

I just saw the goal back, yes it was a decent strike but your right it was deflected in (when I first saw it on the stream didn't notice that) and yes he is going downhill (not having Isak for him to assist / change of playing style this season accelerated this I feel), but is Elanga any better than a coming into his twilight / declining Jacob Murphy? I'm not so sure. Elanga all pace no end product no crossing ability, no passing, no composure, no footballing IQ, no end product, barely made a assist, only 1 goal all season and let's be honest for the money we spent on him we could have got a Semenyo, Adeyemi, Outtara or even today Ndiaye for Everton looked like a level above any of our wingers out there today with his pace, dribbling, control and technique. Opposite to what we have on the right wing were we have a 23 year devoid of confidence and footballing ability in Elanga and a declining aging Jacob Murphy who I feel peaked last season and I feel like next season he will be leaving on a free as I've mentioned before we won't really get much money for him anyway. Elanga needs to seriously up his game next season or we may have to take a loss on him.

If Howe's nephew / Howe were in charge of recruitment last summer then he has to take the full blame for spending money on players who have not improved us. Simple as that and unfortunately as much as I like Howe if we end 12-14th without a cup run and ESPECIALLY if we LOSE the Derby then yeah I can see us getting a new manager, maybe new playing style and a complete overhaul. Maybe that's what we need, a complete reset from top to bottom.

[Colly]

We had Talksport on for the drive home where a Burnley fan said that Dubravka is far better than Trafford for them.

Seriously?.... Is that the same dubs who's conceded 56 goals so far this season, more than any other keeper?

It's almost as if he plays for Burnley. Like I said, the view of a Burnley fan.

[bodacious benny]

The Trafford wankfest is 90% speculation / supposed potential. Yeah he had a blinder in the championship (doesn’t tell us much), he looked ropey when he started the season for city (not unexpected for a rookie) but has looked quite good in some cup games.

Signing him would still be a risk and he certainly doesn’t come in and solve everything. He likely need a year or two to get fully up to speed (of course our fans would jump on him as soon as he doesn’t play like peak Oliver Khan from game 1 with cries of “he’s f***ing s****”…).

[Chappy]

I mean that's generous - it was deflected in. He's definitely going downhill and doesn't look the player he's been for us the previous few seasons, he's not offered much this season. I don't think Osula offers anything either and if there's still interest for him I'd happily cash in on him too.

But totally agree on the summer window... looking like very poor business indeed. And suspect you're right about Howe, I can't see us getting European football and can't see us getting past City and Barca in the FA Cup and CL respectively, and if we finish like 12th-14th, is that gonna be curtains? Possibly.

I just saw the goal back, yes it was a decent strike but your right it was deflected in (when I first saw it on the stream didn't notice that) and yes he is going downhill (not having Isak for him to assist / change of playing style this season accelerated this I feel), but is Elanga any better than a coming into his twilight / declining Jacob Murphy? I'm not so sure. Elanga all pace no end product no crossing ability, no passing, no composure, no footballing IQ, no end product, barely made a assist, only 1 goal all season and let's be honest for the money we spent on him we could have got a Semenyo, Adeyemi, Outtara or even today Ndiaye for Everton looked like a level above any of our wingers out there today with his pace, dribbling, control and technique. Opposite to what we have on the right wing were we have a 23 year devoid of confidence and footballing ability in Elanga and a declining aging Jacob Murphy who I feel peaked last season and I feel like next season he will be leaving on a free as I've mentioned before we won't really get much money for him anyway. Elanga needs to seriously up his game next season or we may have to take a loss on him.

If Howe's nephew / Howe were in charge of recruitment last summer then he has to take the full blame for spending money on players who have not improved us. Simple as that and unfortunately as much as I like Howe if we end 12-14th without a cup run and ESPECIALLY if we LOSE the Derby then yeah I can see us getting a new manager, maybe new playing style and a complete overhaul. Maybe that's what we need, a complete reset from top to bottom.

I agree with that and Elanga has been utter s**** apart from his last few appearances... he seems to be growing a little in confidence but I'm not convinced on him either. Currently it seems we've got so many areas that we need to strengthen (GK, RB/LB cover, RW, ST, possibly more should Bruno/Tonali leave).

I wasn't even aware Howe's nephew was in charge of recruitment is that for real?! The derby at home is literally the only thing we can salvage from what has been an awful season.

Love Howe and will be forever grateful for what he has done, but I do think he's taken us as far as he can... and I hate the fact that talking about this draws stick from the "short memories" crowd... like do we not want to see us progressing as a club? And I'm not suggesting we just get rid straight away, I'd only be open if it meant getting someone in of high calibre - but then, are we able to attract those kind of managers at the moment?

[Colly]

I'd definitely put a caveat in there on the "If the Howe's (assuming his nephew is a Howe...) were in charge of recruitment it's on him" argument, which just relates to how it all came together. If our DoF fiasco led to a very quick "Eddie you're doing transfers" message, coupling that with the rat hardly puts us in a good position for summer recruitment compared to other clubs with actual functioning management structures. If that was the case then the likes of Ramsey and Elanga make perfect sense, followed by the panic of Woltemade and Wissa.

It's just not a good way to run a football club.

[Sanchino]

I'd definitely put a caveat in there on the "If the Howe's (assuming his nephew is a Howe...) were in charge of recruitment it's on him" argument, which just relates to how it all came together. If our DoF fiasco led to a very quick "Eddie you're doing transfers" message, coupling that with the rat hardly puts us in a good position for summer recruitment compared to other clubs with actual functioning management structures. If that was the case then the likes of Ramsey and Elanga make perfect sense, followed by the panic of Woltemade and Wissa.

It's just not a good way to run a football club.

This, we need better structure from top to bottom. For me it makes 100% sense they left the Howe's in charge of recruitment as Elanga and Ramsey have been long term targets for them. Wissa and Woltemade were panic buys yes I feel I don't know if they was our main targets as remember we wanted Joao Pedro and Mbuembo originally?

Either way I feel we need to go back to basics. A attacking high press 4231 with overlapping players, quick passing weather it's going long short or mid range we need more variety instead of just going out wide all the time maybe some long balls over the top mix it up a bit, shots outside the box, high intensity, high physicality and a high aggressive style against Man United with players having frequent movement and trying to run in behind.. even if we get outgunned at least it'll be fun to watch then this caution safe passive tippy tappy BS we been playing nearly all season.

Ramsdale
Trippier Thaiw Botman Hall
Tonali Joelienton
Murphy Gordon* Barnes
Wissa

OR if you really warna go full attacking rest Tripps n have Murphy RB with Elanga RW

*Gordon and Barnes can both interchange to make things interesting in and out of the no.10 position and LW. Murphy may not be quicker than Elanga but at least he can cross (at times) and thread a pass (at times) while Elanga looks like he can barely control a football at times and is too indecisive with his decision making and he ends up neither crossing or shooting so he loses the ball or plays it backwards. Those 4 on there A game can cause any TEAM problems. Woltemade is too slow for our style of play he needs to be on the bench for the near future or as a plan B if we need something different of the bench.

[Colly]

I'd definitely put a caveat in there on the "If the Howe's (assuming his nephew is a Howe...) were in charge of recruitment it's on him" argument, which just relates to how it all came together. If our DoF fiasco led to a very quick "Eddie you're doing transfers" message, coupling that with the rat hardly puts us in a good position for summer recruitment compared to other clubs with actual functioning management structures. If that was the case then the likes of Ramsey and Elanga make perfect sense, followed by the panic of Woltemade and Wissa.

It's just not a good way to run a football club.

This, we need better structure from top to bottom. For me it makes 100% sense they left the Howe's in charge of recruitment as Elanga and Ramsey have been long term targets for them. Wissa and Woltemade were panic buys yes I feel I don't know if they was our main targets as remember we wanted Joao Pedro and Mbuembo originally?

You're forgetting Ekitike, Sesko and probably half a dozen others. We without doubt ended up with 5th or 6th choice mainly due to moving too slowly.

[FOGGONTHETYNE]

Just a thought about Pope, as you know he was in the same class as those two 10year olds that Huntley murdered in soham, and with huntley being attacked and seriously injured if not fatally injured it could have brought it all back to his childhood and affecting his concentration levels.

[Sanchino]

Also another big issue is our playing style / tactics was BUILT around 1 player and we all know who that is. Wissa and Woltemade are both different type of players who thrive of PLAYING ALONGSIDE other forwards who can compliment there playing style (aka Wissa's case he played off Mbuembo/Toney at Brentford) and in Woltemade's case he plays off Wrtiz, Sane and Gnabry in the German national team (all fast quick nippy skilful forwards with technical ability).

But as you can see they can't play a LONE striker role nowhere near the level the rat did and I think that's were we are struggling. We needed someone similar profile to the rat a fast aggressive high pressing striker who's clinical, can create for others and is technically gifted which Wissa (more of a poacher / fox in the box type) and Woltemade (no.9/no.10 big 6ft 6 technical baller BUT slow and lacking physicality/strength) ARE CLEARLY NOT THE SAME TYPE OF PLAYER.

The solution Howe is trying to find? We needed a change of playing style/formation due to these striker signings OR if you wanted to keep the same style you needed to SIGN someone who is SIMIALR TO the rat in playing style but it didn't happen so now due to this we are more of a transitional passive possession based team now than a fast aggressive high press quick on the break / in transitions side but that's cost us dearly in terms of points/performances due to us not not having nobody clinical enough to score (on a regular basis like the rat did) or a constant threat in the box (like the rat DID), injuries, inconsistency, fatigue, etc and that's why we are were we are. Of course you can say players like Tino, Schar and Bruno being out is a factor but that shouldn't be the case were we are relying on those players just to make us look good. This team stems it's problems from not recruiting properly last summer and not preparing or adjusting to competing in 4 competitions with the right squad depth required.

Massive summer ahead. PIF need to come out make a statement either back Howe this summer or back a new man with the funds required and put in a effective recruitment team which can scout astutely instead of going for ''Prem'' proven just look at Brentford, Bournemouth and Brighton's models were they recruit high celling up and coming (as we have done before in Bruno, the rat, Thaiw, Tonali, etc) youngsters/players under 25 with potential to be high value/elite in the next couple seasons afterwards as we can see with those three clubs mentioned they have done with the likes of Rayan, Mbuembo, Baleba, Caicideo, Semenyo, Kroupi Jr, etc.. I could go on and on and on but yeah you guys get my point if these so called ''lesser'' teams can do this (respectfully) why can't we?

[bodacious benny]

This, we need better structure from top to bottom. For me it makes 100% sense they left the Howe's in charge of recruitment as Elanga and Ramsey have been long term targets for them. Wissa and Woltemade were panic buys yes I feel I don't know if they was our main targets as remember we wanted Joao Pedro and Mbuembo originally?

You're forgetting Ekitike, Sesko and probably half a dozen others. We without doubt ended up with 5th or 6th choice mainly due to moving too slowly.

A lot of our targets had no interest in coming here tbf, regardless of how slow or otherwise we moved. By all accounts Mbuemo, Joao Pedro, Sesko etc were never coming here regardless.

[lassassinblanc]

Catching up on highlights today.

Bloody hell we were bad. Agree Pope is done.
If Ramsdale doesn't start against Man U then I think Howe had a lot to answer in any press conference.

Woltemade not great again but he isn't a central midfielder why play him there? (Howe trying to make Joelinton 2.0? )

As I said before on another thread I think we're seeing the end of Howe reign unless we got on a run or win the FA Cup to qualify for Europe I think he's done

[bodacious benny]

Pope has cost us so many goals now. Even the Qarabag goal in Baku just went right through him. He continually parries / punches when he could catch and that's cost us goals this season (was it West Ham he punched a ball that was an easy catch and they scored?). I don't think Ramsdale is a huge upgrade and also won't be here next season, but Pope has to be dropped now.

[TJR]

Pope hasn't been the same since his injury last year. Not the same goalkeeper anymore. Problem is Ramsdale is just as bad.

Need a complete overhaul of the goalkeeping department in the summer. Pope, Ramsdale, Ruddy, Gellespie all need to go. Think Ruddy and Gellespie are out of contract and Ramsdale just on loan so easy to get rid of those 3. For Pope I reckon we might get about £5m or so from a club who haven't quite cottoned on fully to just how much he's declined.

Going to be a massive summer in terms of the numbers we need to move on and bring in. Need to sogn 3 goalkeepers, a RB to replace Trippier who's out of contract and shouldn't get a new one. Krafth also put of contract and shouldn't get a new one. If Livramento goes to Man City as expected, that's 2 RB's needed. Sharhar could possibly be the back up but probaly need to go out on loan and play. We need a back up LB to compete with/ cover for Hall. Let Alex Muprhy go, not good enough.

CB does need addressed but so many other areas are priority so I'd give Schar a one year extension and keep Thiaw/Schar as the RCB options and Botman/Burn as LCB options then replace Schar and Burn summer 27.

Need at least 1 CM. Let Willock go. Bruno, Miley, Tonali, Joelinton and Ramsey can stay.

RW, need to replace both Elanga and Murphy. Murphy is getting on a bit now and Elanga is hopeless, though giving the money we spent we might have to keep him as back up. LW is fine with Gordon and Barnes.

CF is the biggest area we need upgrading. Wissa is atrocious but like Elanga we might have to keep him as back up due to FFP. Let Osula go as well. Not good enough. I'd keep Woltermade as a diffrent option because I think there is a player in there just Howe hasn't worked out how to use him yet.

Squad next season needs to be:

New GK
New GK
New GK

Livramneto
New RB

Thiaw
Schar

Botman
Burn

Hall
New LB

Bruno
Miley

Tonali
New CM

Ramsey
Joelinton

New RW
Elanga

New CF
Woltemade
Wissa

Gordon
Barnes

That's 24 players for a 25 man squad. 25th probably need to be a utility defender who can cover CB and FB who would also be a new signing. That's at least 9 signing required and thats assuming non of the listed players leave, if they do they need replaced also.

In terms of outgoings:
Trippier - don't renew contract
Krafth - don't renew contract
Ruddy - don't renew contract
Gellespie - don't renew contract
Targett - don't renew contract
Ramsdale - end of loan
Pope - sell
Vlachodimos - sell
A.Murphy - sell
Willock - sell
J.Muprhy - sell
Osula - sell

If we get offers for Wissa and Elanga anywhere near what we paid for them, then sell those two also.

Massive rebuild job needed this summer.

[FOGGONTHETYNE]

Excellent summing up there TJR, very i think the word is concise.

Don't know how people can be bothered to look so deeply into the squad and analyse and decide who stays and who goes and what we need here and there, it must be one of three things, i'm either a lazy ****, a thick ****, or both.

[Sanchino]

Pope hasn't been the same since his injury last year. Not the same goalkeeper anymore. Problem is Ramsdale is just as bad.

Need a complete overhaul of the goalkeeping department in the summer. Pope, Ramsdale, Ruddy, Gellespie all need to go. Think Ruddy and Gellespie are out of contract and Ramsdale just on loan so easy to get rid of those 3. For Pope I reckon we might get about £5m or so from a club who haven't quite cottoned on fully to just how much he's declined.

Going to be a massive summer in terms of the numbers we need to move on and bring in. Need to sogn 3 goalkeepers, a RB to replace Trippier who's out of contract and shouldn't get a new one. Krafth also put of contract and shouldn't get a new one. If Livramento goes to Man City as expected, that's 2 RB's needed. Sharhar could possibly be the back up but probaly need to go out on loan and play. We need a back up LB to compete with/ cover for Hall. Let Alex Muprhy go, not good enough.

CB does need addressed but so many other areas are priority so I'd give Schar a one year extension and keep Thiaw/Schar as the RCB options and Botman/Burn as LCB options then replace Schar and Burn summer 27.

Need at least 1 CM. Let Willock go. Bruno, Miley, Tonali, Joelinton and Ramsey can stay.

RW, need to replace both Elanga and Murphy. Murphy is getting on a bit now and Elanga is hopeless, though giving the money we spent we might have to keep him as back up. LW is fine with Gordon and Barnes.

CF is the biggest area we need upgrading. Wissa is atrocious but like Elanga we might have to keep him as back up due to FFP. Let Osula go as well. Not good enough. I'd keep Woltermade as a diffrent option because I think there is a player in there just Howe hasn't worked out how to use him yet.

Squad next season needs to be:

New GK
New GK
New GK

Livramneto
New RB

Thiaw
Schar

Botman
Burn

Hall
New LB

Bruno
Miley

Tonali
New CM

Ramsey
Joelinton

New RW
Elanga

New CF
Woltemade
Wissa

Gordon
Barnes

That's 24 players for a 25 man squad. 25th probably need to be a utility defender who can cover CB and FB who would also be a new signing. That's at least 9 signing required and thats assuming non of the listed players leave, if they do they need replaced also.

In terms of outgoings:
Trippier - don't renew contract
Krafth - don't renew contract
Ruddy - don't renew contract
Gellespie - don't renew contract
Targett - don't renew contract
Ramsdale - end of loan
Pope - sell
Vlachodimos - sell
A.Murphy - sell
Willock - sell
J.Muprhy - sell
Osula - sell

If we get offers for Wissa and Elanga anywhere near what we paid for them, then sell those two also.

Massive rebuild job needed this summer.

Couldn't have summed it up better.

I don't think Jacob Murphy will leave (coming to end of contract summer 27 so won't go for much) and tbh I rather we get a quality RW who can consistently score and assist (Adeyemi, Outtara, Ndiaye, etc) to replace Elanga (if we at least recover half the money we paid for him) and keep Murphy as a experienced back-up who can cover the full-back positions too. Osula I feel even though he's not good enough is a rough diamond still relatively young and I feel there is a player there but needs regular games so maybe loan him out or sell with a buy back clause or something? He could easliy end up at a Frankurt bang in 20+ goals and become the next superstar striker.. I'll hate too see that so we need to cover our backs just encase he turns out like that or he ends up being a dud and ends up back in the Danish Premier League.

Agree with pretty much everything else and if we fail to win a trophy or fail to qualify for Europe could see Tonali, Gordon and Livra all leaving. So big, big rebuilding job ahead.
Agree with pretty much everything else though. Big, big summer rebuild.

[Over The Line]

Agree with pretty much everything else though. Big, big summer rebuild.

So Sporting director to leave, Howe to walk and Saudi be forced to sell the club due to whatever war Trump is starting.

Not sure we can go into a summer rebuild without some form of backroom upheaval.

[FOGGONTHETYNE]

Agree with pretty much everything else though. Big, big summer rebuild.

So Sporting director to leave, Howe to walk and Saudi be forced to sell the club due to whatever war Trump is starting.

Not sure we can go into a summer rebuild without some form of backroom upheaval.

it is worrying like attacking iran is like cornering a cat, lashing out in all directions, qatar dubai bahrain kuwait cyprus etc etc, trump wont be happy till he controls all the oil on the planet

[Colly]

If nothing else the list of qualified teams who won't be able to travel to the World Cup will keep increasing.

[Over The Line]

If nothing else the list of qualified teams who won't be able to travel to the World Cup will keep increasing.

Just need Germany, Spain, France and Argentina to join and we might have a chance of winning something.

[lassassinblanc]

Excellent summing up there TJR, very i think the word is concise.

Don't know how people can be bothered to look so deeply into the squad and analyse and decide who stays and who goes and what we need here and there, it must be one of three things, i'm either a lazy ****, a thick ****, or both.

Couldn't agree more...

On the summary provided by TJR not you being lazy or thick

100% there will be a lot looked at over the next few months how recruitment etc has been done 100% up there.

I think the whole thing needs it's own thread tbh